(These two pieces were parts of a heated discussion on corruption in Nepal at 'Nepal Democracy' Google Group, which is, as some of you know, is a closed club of self-styled pro-democracy activists. So the discussion is not available publicly.)

Nepe's theory on corruption:

1. I think, corruption is a default state of any society. So looking for sources of corruption is absurd. (see ? I told you, I have strange theories !)

2. Corruption is something that gets manifested. It is not something that gets originated.

3. A discussion on corruption make sense only in the context of how to prevent it. In everything else, it is absurd.

4. Since corruption does not have a source (it is omnipresent), prevention of corruption is essentially defining/determining it and placing punitive measures.

5. Defining/determining corruption needs- this is second strange theory of mine- a 'point of beginning'. Of course it needs brain and will power too. However, they can do nothing if a 'point of beginning' is not available.

6. The above is where went wrong in Nepal. Any time during the earlier years after 1990 could/should have been a 'point of beginning'. That did not happen. A continuum of pre-1990 was maintained after 1990. This is where the problem lies and therefore where the answer lies as well.

7. A 'point of beginning' is basically a point of total freedom to define corruption.

8. Give Nepal a point of beginning. That's the only way. There is no other way to find cure to existing corruptions.

9. Do not worry about newer corruptions. Because it is pointless. The measure you place to cure the existing corruptions will take care of the newer corruptions.

10. So, the answer to Nepal's corruption is to have a point of total freedom to define corruptions, place punitive measures and let the land of the law become the monarch.

The rest will be taken care of by vibrant civil society and full democracy we expect to have in near future. If something still gets leaked--and leaked they will-- we will have to learn to live with that, re-defining them as acceptable corruptions, if needed.


*** *** *** *** *** ***

Nepe's roadmap to clean Nepal:

Corruption in Nepal is so extensive and rooted, some patch work is not going to take care of it. I think we need to think it in terms of a road map just like the one for democracy.

I do have a road map for taking care of corruption in Nepal. Once again the major part of it is really strange.

Without further ado, let me put down my road map to fight corruption in Nepal. It has three steps. I have already described the step one in some way.

STEP 1: A POINT OF BEGINNING

As I explained earlier, this is basically an understanding of total power (call it a full democracy, supremacy of the law, republic or whatever). An all powerful state forms an all powerful anti-graft body. CIAA is already there. So basically, making it all powerful and resourceful is what is needed.

STEP 2: RECONCILIATION PERIOD

Actually, I don't know what name to give to it. However, the idea is to give a very liberal opportunity to all defaulters (of all time, all type and all ranks) to voluntarily submit to CIAA what they have benefited. It is logistically a very complicated issue indeed. However, the idea is an opportunity for a voluntary reconciliation with hope that most of the defaulters will take this opportunity and very little will be left for CIAA to go after. Let's say, CIAA announces a 6 months period for this. Those who will submit during this period will not be taken further action against, except for checking authenticity of the claims if CIAA feels so.

STEP 3. NEW ERA OF ZERO TOLERANCE

This commences immediately after the Reconciliation period is over. Zero tolerance explains it all. Politically this period might look like a semi-authoritarian statehood (Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore !). I do not know how politically incorrect I might sound, but if a strict implementation of the rule of law is what that is, then so be it.

So, this is it. The roadmap to a clean Nepal. It is needless to say that this roadmap is only possible in a full democracy. Compromise, negotiated settlement, hyan-tyan have are no alley to this road.

_______________________

Regarding the Theory and Roadmap, I am curious whether Nepe is posting his initial posting there. OR, is he posting an improved version which was the result of the ensuing discussions there?

BitOwayne,
And you are not off the topic here attacking me huh ! SMARTASS THINK HE IS LORD BUDDHA !! Maybe someone needs to give you a grannyglasses to see if my posts were pertaining to the subject or not. And I was talkijng to Ashu not you, if you can catch my drift ....ha ha ha !!!




It was egg slad by the way. ha ha ha !!!

Mr. Lonely,

Agreed. However, the title was a little gimmick to attract more visitors. It works.

*** *** ***

Bidwan,

It is the original (unedited) piece.

This particular series of discussion on corruption got originated from a poster's point that there was a TACIT agreement between political parties and then King, Birendra, regarding amnesty to Panchayat's corruption. I built my arguments on that.


*** *** ***

Indisguise,

"Nepal Democracy" referes to the theme the group discusses about. The group itself is not a democratic one IN THE SENSE that it is a CLOSED and NON-INCLUSIVE club of self-styled activists opposed to the King's regime in Nepal.

Those who oppose the king's regime unambiguously have room in it. Those who don't don't. People of the later category are banging their head on the wall. And there is nothing that can be done about it. Kura tehi ho.

>At the risk of making a complete fool out of me, might
>I as well go on the record to say, Sajha, is the most
>democratic forum that I have come across.

Absolutely. For those who need the most democratic forum, we have Sajha. We don't need one more Sajha.
__

"For those who need the most democratic forum, we have Sajha." he he
What is the difference between Democratic and Most Democratic ?
If Sajha is most Democratic then yours must be dictatorship. Which means your point of veiw is not a SAJHA(general population) veiw. And its people like you who are steering the public into fractions instead of Uniting them. And I have a problem with that NEPE.

Nepe wrote "Agreed. However, the title was a little gimmick to attract more visitors. It works."
Great going, you are now following the footsteps of nepali political leaders who trust their fraudulence more than their honesty.
No matter how much you try to cover up your real intentions with talks about democracy, and your democratic acts, you are nothing but a commie who vibrantly believes and supports Maoists.

Bathroomcoffee you should restrict your petty arguments and namecallings to newbies on sajha who don't know that you're infected with rabies.

I feel sorry when I see you trying to get other people like Nepe to talk to you, and they don't even give your posting a second look. It must be tough to be you. To be ignored the way you are. I feel sorry for you that's why I talk to you sometimes. Be a good dog now. OK?

BitOwayne,
You think I am here to make friends ? ha ha ha You really think I will be hanging with the likes of NEPE and YOU ? ha ha ha I am not even trying to start a conversation. Unlike you MORON I am not here to gain or lose anything. I am not trying to gain sympathy or get votes or gather supportor USE SAJHA as a medium here.
All I am doing is expressing an Opinion. BESIDE NEPE KNOWS BETTER anyways. he he Be a good dog ? ha ha ha Look who's talking ? Rember it was you who wanted my attention not me. Ha Ha Ha

Hurray, if Nepe is a communist then so be it. In a democracy everyone is allowed to participate and that's the beauty of it. If they come from the dark undergrounds from their self styled exiles into the openness of democracy then we should invite them with open arms.

BathroomCoffee, hurray & Bidwan:

You guys should understand you are polluter of every thread in Sajha. I cannot relate anything you write in any thread. I find your writings like a Nepali Saying - Ma garchhu Agra ko Kura lato garchha Gagrako kura. Let people do some fruitful discussions you bunch of ............

No, corruption is merely a symptom of a poor leadership which leads to poor followership. A lack of training contributes also. Nepal just doesn't have a professional class of bureacracy. You can't totally wipe out corruption because after the Jack Abrahoff scandal it has been proven that even America has corruption, but corruption can be curtailed if not policed.

DR,

Corruption might be a symptom of a poor leadership. But, then a poor leadership might be a symptom of corruption too, no ?

However, I do agree that Nepal doesn't have a professional class of bureacracy just yet. But still, you can not wait until that kind of bureacracy gets emerged. Because controlling corruption itself is a part of the process that produces that kind of bureacracy.

Corruption is everywhere. However, uncontrolled corruption is not everywhere. So, you are right that it's not about wiping out. It's about having a controlling system in place.

No matter how you train, no matter what you preach, no matter how well you filfil their needs, some people are going to take chances. So a control system should always be there.

In Nepal's case, the control system is non-functioning. First, it does not have power. Then the problem is overwhelming. So I was suggesting empowerment of the system and some practical compromises before letting it work powerfully and strictly.

__

Now that we have established that Nepe's group is NOT a democratic one
but a rabidly partisan one wearing a democratic khol (and that's fine so long as
people see the group as it really is and NOT as it wishes it to be seen!),

let's move on to additional thought-provoking kura-kani on corruption.

**

Last June, I asked Steve Levitt at the University of Chicago -- of "Freakonomics"
fame -- how he thought corruption might be curbed.

Here is what he said.
Please see question number 6.

Free registration required to access the article

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/08/readersopinions/questions-freakonomics.html?ex=1138251600&en=dcd46cd6f170805c&ei=5070

*****

On another note, recently, in my two-hour guest-lecture on "law and economics"
to the law students at the Kathmandu School of Law in Bhaktapur, the issue of
corruption came up prominently. I think KSL students are now putting together
an in-house journal in Nepali bhasa that addresses governance and corruption
issues in Nepal.

That's a small step toward raising awareness against corruption, really.

************

Not only in Nepal, but political parties are thought to be the most corrupt bodies around the world. Don't take my word for it.

"Political parties top corruption perception chart: Three quarters of citizens surveyed globally said they view political parties as being the most corrupt group in society, according to Transparency International's 2005 Global Corruption Barometer."

Read the rest (with links to the TI's papers) at:
- http://www.euractiv.com/Article?tcmuri=tcm:29-150846-16&type=News

oohi
"if you are undemocratic, you will surely be corrupt and few will know about the extent of your corruption. If you are democratic, you will STILL be corrupt, but your chances of being caught will be much, much higher!"
ashu

Showing off again, kaso? nytimes ma name chapiyo bhanera? by the way, Q3 happened to be my question. Should have sent on my own name so tha I cud show off later. tes bela buddhi pugena, ahile purpuro ma hat rakhera ke garnu.

In jest.

TO NEPE AND COMPANY,
WHY THE FUG ARE YOU SPLITING OFF ? YOUR FORUM SHOULD NOT BE CALLED DEMOCRACY NEPAL BUT NEPE AND POONTE'S DEMOCRACY. If you are going to put restrictions and not include everyone then your version is no better than GYANEY's version.

One question to Ashu et al. (and no I have no idea what this ND google thing is about):

Is there freedom of association in a democracy?

I do agree with the notion that democracy does not necessarily satisfy views and opinions of everybody. Democracy emphasizes on majority and hence the opinion which is followed by most number of people ultimately gets the chance to rule. However, democracy also makes sure that all views get a chance to be presented and when we talk about a democratic debate and/ or a forum, it should allow all views to have equal chance of participation no matter what. Hence according to what I have understood about democracy, a forum which does not welcome views from all sides, cannot claim itself to be DEMOCRATIC.

I do not agree with Nepe.

In Nepal, Those people who work in government offices and political parties - Corruption is main intention in everyday and they do in different form.

" You do not have to eat shit, when other eat it. "

" You do not follow to street dogs, you follow a wise leader. "

There is No theory or Rule for corruption and crimes. You can not say that what is criminal behind it for....."

Bad is bad and crime is crime in Heaven, Hell and Earth.

Do not try to cover up crimes and corruption of your families.

Nepe,

Now I have more know-how about the N"D"GG group from your response.

I have no idea about who are banging their head on the wall to belong in that sacrosanct coterie of self-styled democrats, but my comments was strictly on the basis of the verity that I saw in Sajha.

The fact that Nepal "Democracy" Google Group NEEDS Sajha and the likes of it, in terms of OPEN and IMPARTIAL entity such that the general ignorant populace can know of its existence, without which, NDGG, as it appears, shall only be an ego booster for so long for most of its members, is proof enough why open, impartial and nondiscriminatory platform is a better choice than the one NDGG has.

After all, what good is ANY self-serving, illuminating, quality, or total bullshit democratic dialogue for NEPAL and NEPALESE that some people have inside the closed door, not available for the VERY PUBLIC that needs to understand it? I mean, it seems like a group, by and large, does have a motive for Nepal and Nepalese from your prophecy here in Sajha, or is it just an entertainment place for "I say hey, and you say hello and we'll all clap" bunch of real/pseudo elites?

With due respect to the credentials of the participant out there, I have a subtle feeling that we, here in Sajha, have equally qualified bunch of ignorant, who are equally capable (if not better) to understand ANY diverse and new-fangled (rational or otherwise) logic.

We MAY or MAY NOT need another forum akin to Sajha, but as the NDGG, including you, seem to advertise itself as a coterie whose larger interest is for DEMOCRACY for OUR nation and US, I could not help but wonder about the irony of its moderation.

PERHAPS few people who named and orchestrated the NDGG might not have a taste to listen and commune with general populace; while those very people wants to bring some positive change for democratic Nepal (The theme is was Nepal Democracy right?). Now, to put it mildly, is not that IRONIC?

Rest, you guys know better.

IndisGuise :).

No matter how closed the group was, Nepe posting it in sajha was the first democratic step for that group.

Congratulations on the democratic move.

Little Bit of Humor. :o!

11 HUSBANDS!!!
A young man married a beautiful woman who had
previously divorced ten husbands.

On their wedding night, she told her new
husband,"Please be gentle. I'm still a virgin."

"What?" said the puzzled groom. "How can that be if
you've been married ten times?"

"Well, husband #1 was a Sales Representative. He
kept telling me how great it was going to be."

"Husband #2 was in Software Services. He was never
really sure how it was supposed to function, but he
said he'd look into it and get back to me."

"Husband #3 was from Field Services. He said
everything checked out diagnostically but he just
couldn't get the system up."

"Husband #4 was in Telemarketing. Even though he
knew he had the order, he didn't know when he would
be able to deliver."

"Husband #5 was an Engineer. He understood the
basic process but wanted three years to research,
implement, and design a new state-of-the-art method.
"

"Husband #6 was from Administration. He thought he
knew how, but he wasn't sure whether it was his job
or not"

"Husband #7 was in Marketing. Although he had a
product, he was never sure how to position it."

"Husband #8 was a psychiatrist. All he ever did was
talk about it."

"Husband #9 was a gynecologist. All he did was
look."

"Husband #10 was a stamp collector. All he ever did
was..... God, I miss him!"

"But now that I've married you, I'm so excited!"

"Good," said the husband, "But, why?"

"You're with the Government. This time I KNOW I'm
gonna get SCREWED

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